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primaz

Which CV kits are best for an R200 240Z?

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I am thinking of upgrading an R200 from stock half shafts to CV's and have read a couple of long threads about issues of slippage from Fotofab CV's that seem to indicate that is a common issue, and have read the thread on DSS which sounds like in 2017 to early this year they had issues? and while that person sounded like he finally got a set that would fit, I am confused as to which CV kit really is a direct bolt in that has not slippage and will work well?  For this application I would be doing it on 1 or possible 2 of my more street machine Z cars, one with a 3 liter Datsun Spirit engine and the other with a 2.8 Datsun Spirit engine. 

 

I have a much more extreme race/street Z that will likely need something more bullet proof, maybe the T3 kit which I heard now is available for newer more common Infinity Q50?  Not sure if that will hold up to around 800 HP ?

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14 minutes ago, rturbo 930 said:

ZCarGarage just came out with a new bolt in CV kit that looks promising. http://www.zcarblog.com/2018/06/08/performance/parts-z-car-garage-cv-axles.html

 

Not cheap though.

 

Thanks, that kit looks really promising.  Do you know anyone whom has used it?  They do have some great case histories posted.  It is a good chuck of change but cheaper than that one listed in one of the threads discussing the DSS issues one person had for $3400.  I am about a month or two from doing the upgrade so this is great information as I do not want to make a mistake as I might end up doubling the error on two cars?

 

"rturbo 930" both of these Z's already have R200's, what do you think of the T3:  Drop Mount / Dogbone and their R200sn mustache bar?  Is that more for looks or what?  I am curious as the only issue I have encountered on these two street 240Z's is the typical clunk of the half shafts.   

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50 minutes ago, primaz said:

 

Thanks, that kit looks really promising.  Do you know anyone whom has used it?  They do have some great case histories posted.  It is a good chuck of change but cheaper than that one listed in one of the threads discussing the DSS issues one person had for $3400.  I am about a month or two from doing the upgrade so this is great information as I do not want to make a mistake as I might end up doubling the error on two cars?

 

"rturbo 930" both of these Z's already have R200's, what do you think of the T3:  Drop Mount / Dogbone and their R200sn mustache bar?  Is that more for looks or what?  I am curious as the only issue I have encountered on these two street 240Z's is the typical clunk of the half shafts.   

I believe it has been offered to the public as of only yesterday, so no, I certainly don't know anyone personally running one, it appears the only people running the kit at the moment are people who are close to ZCG. At a glance, I think it's a better kit than what Wolf Creek offers.

 

Regarding the mustache bar, I don't know if there's a benefit to the aftermarket units available that I'm not aware of, perhaps there is, but it's not on my shopping list. Money better spent elsewhere IMO. Maybe you will expose a weakness of the stock mustache bar with 800hp, but I'm thinking you probably won't with 300 or less. I could be wrong, of course. Regarding the drop mounts, I believe I've heard that the stock ones are a bit flexible, but I think this can be solved with some simple reinforcement. I recall John C talking about this somewhere on here, but I'm stretching my memory a bit.

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When you're looking at parts like this you should break it down in to subcomponents.  Machining the races and balls for the joint is the most important part.  It would not be surprising to find that everybody gets their joints from the same off-shore manufacturer.  Who just copied the Posrsche 930 design or some other easy tripod or other "CV" design. The rest is just axles and splines and flanges.

 

And, in that link with the video about "looseness" it's not even clear what the guy thinks he's talking about.  Watch that video, at about 40 seconds, and you'll realize that he didn't show anything.  He wiggled a tire and that's about it.

 

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If you're resourceful enough to find some original Z31T axles, I still believe that's the nicest swap. The main benefit is that there are no fasteners on the diff end...the axle plugs right into the diff. It's just a matter of getting a companion flange on the outboard side to bolt it in. I'm biased perhaps as I sell weld on adapters...but adapters are $195, used Z31T cv's will run you 250-280, and welding the adapter in probably another $100 if you can't do it. So $550 all in. They are known to be very strong too. See my post in the Drivetrain section.

 

Encouraging that Z garage has made a better set. I don't see how theirs don't have adapters though? Still looks like 930 style with adapter...maybe they weld them? I bought the wolf creek setup first hoping it was just a bolt it, but like Z garage found, the CV's they use are terribly sloppy. I then bought true Porsche 930 CV's, but the idea of 20 fasters for axles didn't appeal to me, so I figured out the Z31T setup.

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I’m the guy with all the DSS fit troubles. Once they got the machining right we were good to go...... but to be fair, the problem was with the stub axle not the half shafts, and the extra expense involves the stub axles as well. My biggest fear was snapping a stub axle at pace..... after I had completed the swap, the stock half shafts were still in good shape. Other than changing out some hardware, the half shafts fit fine and I run them very hard on track with and LS1. Hope that helps. Jim. 

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15 hours ago, trackzpeed said:

I’m the guy with all the DSS fit troubles. Once they got the machining right we were good to go...... but to be fair, the problem was with the stub axle not the half shafts, and the extra expense involves the stub axles as well. My biggest fear was snapping a stub axle at pace..... after I had completed the swap, the stock half shafts were still in good shape. Other than changing out some hardware, the half shafts fit fine and I run them very hard on track with and LS1. Hope that helps. Jim. 

 

Jim,

 

Do you feel now that DSS had changed their R200 Datsun CV solution and if so would yo recommend them now?  Is there a link to their Datsun R200 product or do you just call them?  Thus far the one that RTurbo listed from ZCarGarage seems like the best but it is a little on the steeper side at $1500.  I have not made up my mind yet...

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Call DSS.   As I said before, my problems with their product were with the stub axles not the half shafts.  They use the larger/stronger 108mm CV and are very stout. You won’t break one IMO. unless they have changed then supplied hardware, that’s the only thing you may need to source on the differential side.  HTH. Jim

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Best? www.modern-motorsports.com 930 setup. It doesn't have adapters that bolt to the stock diff output stub and companion flange. It has a proper chromoly stub that plugs into the diff, and chromoly companion that attaches to the stub axle at the wheel. Couple with their 37 spline upgraded stub axles, and that IMO is as strong as you're going to get for the R200.

Next best? www.modern-motorsports.com Z31T setup with shorter CV shafts. The Z31T shafts can be tough to find but they're pretty strong and with the shorter shafts they fit well. Same thing on the stubs, m-m sells chromoly stub axles and adapters to connect to the CV instead of an adapter that bolts to the stock companion flange and diff output flange.

After that: everything else. DSS, Wolf Creek, Ermish, whatever other vendor you want to pick. These have adapters that bolt to the stock companion flange and diff output flanges and usually use 930 CVs. 930 CVs are strong, no doubt, but attaching to the stock flanges is going to be where the weakness is in terms of ultimate strength. Also 930 CVs are very popular with off road and racing crowd, so there is a wide variety of quality out there. Cheap ones have slack in them and will cause clunking. The other issue is the adapters: they bolt to the stock pieces and the bolts come loose. Seems to be the norm with this setup, bolts continuously coming loose. Heard of this happening to 510 and Z guys, most recently Mark Haag's car as he had issues with vibrations on the dyno, traced it back to the CVs.

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Any thoughts on the ttt stub axle eliminators? They don't say anything about axles on the website but if factory Nissan axles can be used that may be a cheaper setup. I keep thinking j30 5 bolt outputs on the diff and s15 axles with the ttt stub axle eliminators would be a good strong setup.

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The longnose R200 loads the strap mounting holes vertically, the way they are deisgned to take a load. The shortnose does not. It adds what acts like a lever to the mounting holes, then pushes up on that. This is why there have been a few cases of high hp guys tearing up the unibody right there with shortnose diffs. If it has happened with a longnose and RT mount, I haven't seen it.

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Not saying better or worse in any way.  Just my opinion.  930 CV joints, inners and outers which are 28 spline with 300m axles from RBP manufacturing.  The inners mate to an 8.8 with 28 spline rear end from a Lincoln with aluminum case.  The outers mate using Z car depot 930 to Z hubs.  We used 280Z stubs, which are much stouter than the 240Z stubs 28 spline also.  LS1 power, 6 speed, 3.73 gears have not had any problems so for but not a lot of miles on the completed set up.  More pics in the thread on Gen III and IV forums.  HTH, Richard.   PS we put rubber hose on the axle to keep the boots compressed.   

 

image.png

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2 hours ago, mtnickel said:

Here’s what our slim welded adapter looks like. Basically converts the stock flange to a larger one. 

 

Stock z31t axles fit like this. 

 

4 fasteners a side = winning. 

 

4D0A717C-24E6-4201-BE21-446EEC4096A8.thumb.jpeg.6cfcc4c007838584e800fe76152d911e.jpeg9F4001D9-E44B-4B83-899F-39846BE90B4C.thumb.jpeg.c2bf1077cc65f84abe057e6618c4c220.jpeg

32CA5F17-403F-48DC-88B0-E1AA6B3081E5.thumb.jpeg.e7ff4fcdbf14ab10b024e3a79d30f44b.jpeg

 

 

That is what I am running.... Once I get that far.

 

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How do those locate, or center, the CV?  Just curious.  It also looks like you're using the outer edges of the original flange to locate the ring.  Do you use some sort of fixture to center the ring on the flange before welding?

 

Just wondering how to be sure the CV is on center and perpendicular when it's all welded and bolted together.

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1 minute ago, NewZed said:

How do those locate, or center, the CV?  Just curious.  It also looks like you're using the outer edges of the original flange to locate the ring.  Do you use some sort of fixture to center the ring on the flange before welding?

 

Just wondering how to be sure the CV is on center and perpendicular when it's all welded and bolted together.

Great questions. We found out the hard way that the square flange isn’t concentric.  It’s a rough cast and can be off almost 1mm. 

 

The z31t axle centers on the locating ring of the adapter. The adapter sits flat to the machined face of the stock flange. That takes care of 2 orientations.

 

To weld the adapter on correctly we made the square a touch small. That way you can strategically grind the edges of your square flange to be equal from the Center locating ring. We recommend using a dial indicator to verify you get it reasonably close. If it’s a little big, you can use feeler gauges, shim stock, or even paper as stock to shim it true before tacking. 

 

Or you can rent the jig we made to locate it. Haha

 

both options shown in pics

 

32F8880A-4023-4CCA-9A80-99E21D8D60A7.jpeg

BBD9A83D-1561-40EC-AD74-B3A28802570F.jpeg

34B0C9E2-8819-4B69-8493-026773B35F56.jpeg

282C1A77-0A38-4CF8-A170-438AB068B209.jpeg

F24DF5AC-1AC3-4A9C-B550-C517605A687C.jpeg

EB174C5E-9728-41FB-8169-70EB383F0CAD.jpeg

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280Z stubs are 27 spline vs 240 at 25 spline. 280Z stub axles are far from unbreakable. Even the 37 spline ones can be broken, especially with drag strip launches.

Rather have mtnickels's weld on adapters than adapters bolted to the stock stub which bolts to the CV, so move that one up a spot from "the rest" and it falls behind MM's billet Z31 adapters, which have a thicker, more nicely radiused flange than the stock companion flange.

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Don't mtnickel's adapters remove the requirement of shorter axles?  Flipping the cages, adjustable control arm length and all of the other possible "fixes".  The other big expense to that conversion.  I seem to recall that some of the early adapters pushed the flange surface inward.  Maybe even the one that Joe makes now.  

 

I'm just focusing on the OP's project, not the super duper drag racers.  SUNNYZ and RebekahZ were doing hard core racing.  Pretty sure that SUNNYZ was trying to break things.

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16 minutes ago, JMortensen said:

280Z stubs are 27 spline vs 240 at 25 spline. 280Z stub axles are far from unbreakable. Even the 37 spline ones can be broken, especially with drag strip launches.

Rather have mtnickels's weld on adapters than adapters bolted to the stock stub which bolts to the CV, so move that one up a spot from "the rest" and it falls behind MM's billet Z31 adapters, which have a thicker, more nicely radiused flange than the stock companion flange.

Ya, weld on adapters aren’t an ideal solution, and we are at the mercy of stock stubs. But all in all, it was the cheapest decent solution I could come up with. 

 

Newzed

With my adapters, it’s still a close fit at full droop and I would recommend flipping the cages. But that only takes about 10 minutes to do. Saves the 3.5 odd mm. 

And they are maybe a little more outboard of Joe’s since they even require to grind the stub axle down a shade. 

Joe may have been able to make his even more outward provided you could trim more of the stub off.  You’d lose the staked portion, but the newer ZX nut is a locking nut that would alleviate it. 

 

267B7853-EECD-4B6D-BD30-778DB05E5845.jpeg

902713CA-4753-4006-9182-B25CA00EB6D5.jpeg

Edited by mtnickel

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3 hours ago, NewZed said:

We neglected to abuse the OP for using the word "best".  Best depends on the goals that have been defined.

Wow, you guys go deep, very deep :)  I will clarify, I just want the "best" meaning kit that requires as close to zero modifications to install and be very reliable.  To me a well engineered kit should just bolt in and work well?  Is that too much to ask?  For my two street 240Z's they both have R200's, coil over suspension, one is about 200 HP the other is about 250-300 HP and both will be just daily driven street cars.  If you have to modify, cut, weld, machine, etc. to convert it to CV's to me then it really is not a bolt on kit.  

 

Sorry to get a bit off topic but many of the great responses on this thread got me thinking about my 3rd Z car and what are the options for both differential and CV's for a more extreme street Z, my Primadonna Z car?

 

 

Separate from the CV's for the two street 240z's I am considering upgrading the higher HP 240Z R200 rear end internals to the M Factory R200 Helical LSD; based on what some of you have implied I wonder if going with the Z Car Garage CV kit, upgrading the diff mounts using the Techno Toy parts and with the M Factory R200 LSD what kind of HP could that handle?

 MFactory R200 Helical LSD1130035743_primazsideview.jpg.85a478a3362b658c55537cbabad008ca.jpg

 

When I get these two cars done I will finally be able to focus on my street storming 240Z, the famous Primadonna Z that I plan on putting in a RIPS Racing RB34 Skyline that will put down 750-850 HP.  On that car I am not sure what to do yet for the rear end as I did contact Techno Toys and they said their Z32 TT will work up to 700 HP and they did not think anything but a straight axle would handle more?  I think what they have converts the 240Z to use a Q45 or Q50 rear end with those rear end factory CV's, unless the Z32 TT is something different?  For that car I would like to know if there is any kits that have a strong enough rear end that keeps the car independent suspension that will not likely break?  Maybe the Techno Toys or the Arizona Z kits that convert it to the Q45 or Q50 might hold up since that car will be more a street supercar not a quarter mile car?  I also have been following the threads on the Ford 8.8 rear end but it seems like there really is no kit available but people are trying to fabricate their own way to use that in place of the R200?

 

I  Right now I just want to finish these more daily driver Z's before I get into my more extreme build.

 

 

Edited by primaz

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