Invincibleextremes Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) After looking everything over and doing some digging I came to the conclusion that using 65 mustang hubs on 240z spindles is not a cost effective solution for big brakes. I am now looking into a ball joint adapter that bolts to the control arm of the 204z and uses press in 2014 mustang ball joints. I intend to use this in conjunction with 2004 Subaru wrx coil over struts to allow the use of 5 lug 2014 mustang hubs and brakes. Which are 5x114.3 The intent is to have the outer wheel mount flange be pushed out roughly 35mm.... effectively converting our cars from a "zero offset" wheel to a "plus 35mm" wheel... aka just like the 300z and the 240sx, Toyota supra etc... It's a front steer, rear caliper spindle just like the stock 240z, once I know what the bump steer geometry will be I will have a clearer picture of things. Someone could use a widebody or flared setup if they chose to run a zero offset wheel, or use cheap and readily available 350z wheels and have stock track width. Let me know if anyone has any input on this. Good idea, bad, etc... Edited May 11, 2018 by Invincibleextremes Clarifying topic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969honda Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Just spit balling here but, if you are set on using the front Z control arms and tie rods, (and provided pushing the lower ball joint out farther doesn't totally screw up the suspension geometry) would it be possible to machine a steel adapter plate to mount on the stock Z lower control arm in place of the ball joint? Have one end machined with the stick four bolt pattern and the outboard end machined to accept screw in type ball joint? That would allow a really beefy, early 2" Chrysler ball joint (K727 IIRC) like a lot of domestic road course and circle track guys use? They can be found in almost every parts store for a decent price. Howe/Coleman/AFCO and several others all have offerings of that joint in different racing materials and configurations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking. A small adapter with 5 holes... 4 for the control arm, and one for the 2014 mustang ball joint. Not looking to push the ball joint out ... that would create camber. I plan on bolting a 2014 mustang spindle on with a 2004 Subaru coil over strut in the exact 240z factory locations. I just have a feeling that the wheel mounting surface on a 2014 mustang is out farther from the ball joint pivot point than it is on a 240z. I know this because mustangs use a 35mm or 42mm positive offset wheel... Factory steering on any car always places the center of steering directly in the middle of a tire... ALWAYS. Either with a positive offset wheel or by being very shallow on the spindle like the 240z is. I have one question. Why the Chrysler ball joint? What suspension bolts up to it? Edited December 3, 2017 by Invincibleextremes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969honda Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 It's just one that I recall Ron Sutton has mentioned in several of his suspension design threads on pro-touring due to the joint strength and size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 Oh. Yeah, I don't think a spindle and ball joint designed for a 3,500 lb car is going to be the weak link in a 2,500 lb v8 datsun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1969honda Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) The other thing you may look into (I'm still researching and learning chassis and suspension design) is something like the modular ball joint rings? Possibly hook the stock tension rods in to one side and make a new lower control arm off of the threaded stud? Use a something like below but have one side go to the stock control arm mount and then run the clevis side back to the tension rod? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-94000 The link below also has something similar that the miata guys use? http://www.kineticvehicles.com/ControlArms.html Edited December 3, 2017 by 1969honda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 If you are going to do a real upgrade then it should include a larger diameter hollow stub axle. I believe that S chassis Nissans have this and of course there is a ship load of aftermarket parts out there for them. Including bigger brakes from the Z32 conversion up. S14/15 are best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted December 8, 2017 Author Share Posted December 8, 2017 I'm not messing with stub axles. Gets too expensive fast... I can build a setup with 14 inch brembos up front and 800 hp axles for WAY less than what it currently costs to do the rear conversion kit from any number of places... The Nissan stuff is severely overpriced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Well you asked for comments, guess I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish other than to convert to a five stud big brake setup. These days if there is already something available off the shelf then I don't try to reinvent the wheel, the amount and variety of S chassis suspension gear available is almost infinite and staying all Nissan has it's plus too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted December 15, 2017 Author Share Posted December 15, 2017 True, I'm just trying to offer the same thing, but for the guys with big hp who don't want to spend the current market prices for it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted December 15, 2017 Author Share Posted December 15, 2017 For example... the cheapest coilover setup is 900 bucks and requires welding... or you can use bolt struts from a different platform... I'm trying to use the super 8.8 off a 2015 mustang... bolt on factory brakes on the rear, hubs etc... 40 bucks for a hub sure beats 800 for stub axles and then another 600 for companion flanges. The s30 platform market is saturated, very true. But it's saturated with severely overpriced junk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverdone Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 Ok, but what you're talking about doing is creating this The only difference is you want to use WRX coilovers and a Mustang diff. While you may think it is overpriced, they've already done all the engineering work to make sure it's going to fit correctly, and also do all the manufacturing of the custom parts as well. I've no doubt that you could create something for yourself for cheaper, but you're still going to have to design all those parts, and then create them, and that will take a lot of time and money and access to tools that the vast majority of people don't have. If you were to sell these parts, I'd expect you'd be charging similar margins for them as well, because people WILL pay it. I'm excited for you to bring something new to the market, but you don't have to crap on other companies work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 Been busy. Anyways, did a ton of measuring. First off, steering knuckle to ball joint distance is the same. So geometry remains the same in that regards. Secondly, the tie rod ends have the same taper BUT the mustang ones are bigger and stronger. The solution is to use techno toy tuning 5/8 adjustable outer tie rods. The mustang spindle can be drilled for 5/8 with the provided drill bit. Or do what I'm planning on doing, and fab up the mustang inner tie rod together with the datsun inner, and use mustang outer tie rods, and not drill the spindles. The other all important question is wheel flange to ball joint dimensions, and they are spot on. My original thought was they were kicked out about an inch. I was wrong. You will need to use zero offset wheels with this setup. Or negative if you want to run really wide track. You can use 11.5 inch brakes and run 16 inch wheels. Or be like me, and use 13.2 inch brakes with 17 inch wheels. The strut mounts don't line up, but are 1/2 wider than the mustang spindle. The solution I have come up with is to use 1/4 inch plates to adapter the mounting pattern to the mustang spindle bolt locations. Two plates per strut. All in all my cost for this has been less than the cost of a pair of 5 lug hubs. So yeah, this is a no brainer when it comes to choice for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) Parts breakdown. 2004 dodge neon srt4 coilovers. --- I bought mine for $180 2014 mustang spindles ---- $100 a pair, all day. 2014 mustang brakes.--- $100 to $300 a set, easily found. Mine were $150... What's needed to make them all work together is two 1/4 plates with 3 holes each and a welder per spindle. And a hybrid 240z lower control arm that uses a mustang ball joint. In my case I'm just welding a mustang control arm stub to the 240z one. Edited January 14, 2018 by Invincibleextremes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim.d Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Good for you for perusing this and documenting. Keeping the HybridZ spirit alive! Looking forward to continued progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rturbo 930 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Can you post some more pics showing how it all goes together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 This isnt something thats really marketable btw, just an idea people can use for themselves.... I may have the 1/4 inch strut adapter shims laser cut and sold for $60 for the 4 of them to make it easier for people to do this, but this is honestly something anyone with a welder can do themselves. Monday I'll go grab some 1/4 inch plate steel and bolt it all together, and show you guys what's needed to make the dodge neon coilover bolt to the mustang spindle. Once I have wheels and tires, which I can't afford at the moment, I'll be bolting this up to the front of my datsun and posting pics. And videos. And later down the road I'll have my rear set up designed and built. The rear will require me to design a custom knuckle with neon coilover mounts and be set up for the 2015 mustang irs hubs while using 2014 mustang brakes (so braking stays matched to the 2014 fronts). So for a few months I'll have 5 lug front set up with 4 lug rears untill I have the rear to bolt in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 To each their own and if someone comes up with something that satisfies their requirements DIY then good, relying on off the shelf solutions is becoming a habit and is not what this forum should be about. All I'm trying to do is to recommend a better starting point, to put it practically wide front wheels requiring zero off set put a lot of leveraged load on the stub axles which then are likely to flex and throw the suspension alignments out under heavy cornering. But if that is not relevant to the OP's use then ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invincibleextremes Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 As in the rear stub axles? The setup I'm designing doesn't use stub axles, but rather bolt on hubs like the newer Nissan stuff. I think that's what the other guy was saying when he was talking about large bore hollow axles too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 OP was about the front, has it changed to the rear now? Ignore me then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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