RB26powered74zcar Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 This piece is so beautiful, I'm just thinking.... would there be any available bonding material that could be used instead of welding this fine piece of intake jewelry...?? I just hate thinking a weld will marry these two parts together... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrumpetRhapsody Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 It would still be jewelry with the right type of weld... many things look great with certain types of welds IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Challenger Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Some nice think machine welded tig welds. The big fat ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffer949 Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Have you seen his welds?? Go look at the intercooler that he had to modify. His welds are pretty much perfect. So its not like its going to be just thrown together.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONZTER Posted May 15, 2008 Author Share Posted May 15, 2008 I don't mean to sound rude but what sort of money were you looking at for this intake? It's just so phenomenal in design, and I imagine there was a lot of time put into making the programming for the CNC machine? Aaron Well, like some many projects, it’s good to have friends. One of my friends own a CNC shop, and we trade time with each other. I do some engineering work for him and he'll trade me CNC time. This really is the only way to make a project like this possible. So, to put a number on it? A typical good rate for CNC programming and run time in Southern California is $60.00 an hour. This part took 67 hours to program and run. with 45 of that being pure run time (so this would be the time for a second part) Now material. The chunk for the back started out at 95lbs x $4.00 plus for prime plate and the front chunk was 50lbs. Once again My friend had some "scrap" from a previous job, I bought it off him for scrap rate which is $1.00 a pound. So if you start to do the math without the special good guy pricing, you'll see this would cost more than some peoples cars. Completely ridiculous and impractical for the gains I hope it will make over a set-up like everybody else is using. I personally think making more of these from CNC would be a waste of time and resources, it just happened to be convenient for me to do it. Seriously, look at car like TimZ and JeffP’s cars and the power they are making with much simpler to construct manifolds. I only hope to be where they are. I really like to think of this project, and my whole engine for that matter as exercise in fabrication, completely impractical, and overdone. But, for me enjoyment, a hobby. I am glad everybody likes the parts, and appreciate the nice comments, I’m sure some of you can take this concept in a different direction and make it practical. I think Kevin from accurate injection was looking into it. I will eventually be doing a thread on the complete engine build, stay tuned. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 fast z Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Well, like some many projects, it’s good to have friends. One of my friends own a CNC shop, and we trade time with each other. I do some engineering work for him and he'll trade me CNC time. This really is the only way to make a project like this possible. So, to put a number on it? A typical good rate for CNC programming and run time in Southern California is $60.00 an hour. This part took 67 hours to program and run. with 45 of that being pure run time (so this would be the time for a second part) Now material. The chunk for the back started out at 95lbs x $4.00 plus for prime plate and the front chunk was 50lbs. Once again My friend had some "scrap" from a previous job, I bought it off him for scrap rate which is $1.00 a pound. So if you start to do the math without the special good guy pricing, you'll see this would cost more than some peoples cars. Completely ridiculous and impractical for the gains I hope it will make over a set-up like everybody else is using. I personally think making more of these from CNC would be a waste of time and resources, it just happened to be convenient for me to do it. Seriously, look at car like TimZ and JeffP’s cars and the power they are making with much simpler to construct manifolds. I only hope to be where they are. I really like to think of this project, and my whole engine for that matter as exercise in fabrication, completely impractical, and overdone. But, for me enjoyment, a hobby. I am glad everybody likes the parts, and appreciate the nice comments, I’m sure some of you can take this concept in a different direction and make it practical. I think Kevin from accurate injection was looking into it. I will eventually be doing a thread on the complete engine build, stay tuned. Jeff I am glad someone else puts those words out there, as I have told people in the past. Just like with my projects, things are always more complicated than they seem to the average joe. Like you stated, with over 3k, and no profit tacked on, theres no one that would pay for this. Just in my valve cover for my Twin cam setup, the material was over 650.00 for RAW material. Sure if I didnt have a CNC in my shop, I would of fabbed one up out of sheet metal for 20.00 in material. As well as with my twin cam setup, people think I just ran a couple of heads through an ole band saw, grabbed a couple of long bolts, and tied it all togther! Ha! There was more time measuring, grinding, surfacing, etc, then most people put in ENTIRE engine builds. So To sum up, with a project as involved as MONZTERS, he has ALOT of time and efforts racked up into this, more than most people can even think about. We do this for the fun, and trying to optimize these "OLD" engines. He didnt do it to make a profit, he did it because he is smart enough to, and he can. I give him kudos for that. I think I may need to model up something simular with lots of CFD work on my twin cam setup. GREAT WORK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slow_Old_Car Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Yea i was looking at those plates/bricks you machined from and had been cringing behind my keyboard thinking how expensive they must have been. This will definately be a one off, and ultimately timeless piece of engineering i suspect. I just can't wait to see what numbers it puts out with all the trick gear your fabbing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 fast z Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Yea I would like to take a simple box plentum, itb setup, with 1.5" id runners, strait, etc. and compare on the dyno in the same hour as your super duper intake. THEN we can really see how much is real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Regarding Daeron's comments on page 12. I would agree that 'flow straighteners' would be a technically more correct term to use. When I originally saw 'vortex generators' I read this as generating a vortex as in their design. This is why definition of terms is so important and semantics more than a pedantic exercise. If people don't understand what you are trying to say, then you all loose a lot of time chasing stuff because of misunderstandings that need not be. Similarly misapplying a term can lead to similar things...Technically the items Monzster put into the manifold are decidely not vortex generators. I forget the proper aerodynamic term, 'strake' or something other. VG's are generally at an oblique angle meant to disrupt airflow over a wing, not really to channel and straighten it. VG's are used to great effect in general aviation aircraft in lowering speeds the aircraft can fly with stability with higher angles of attack on the main wing surface. Splitting hairs? It's exactly why definition of terms is always the first section in any technical paper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Strake is, if not the proper term, a good one, as it describes their basic job (making air go where you want it in a generally straight direction). Example: Look at the early Mig fighters (-15 and -17). You could call them stall fences, but I don't think you are worrying about boundary separation from an airfoil and massive attack angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Being the long-winded guy that I am, I REALLY appreciate it when someone points out the usefulness of my (sometimes pedantic) semantics. When someone talks to much, they usually have an empty skull. The individual who's skull isn't empty, often feels he is wasting words in over-explaining. Thanks also for the better definition in the "void" I was groping through. Subjects like English and History (you know, book-subjects) should be taught via internet forum. "It takes a village..." It couldn't be much worse than the results from the modern public schools in far too many cases, and anyone showing potential for real learning could be singled out and taught by people with PhDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Jump back to posts #82 and #93.. you are correct.. OTM brought up the idea of vortex generators... but Jeff is not using "vortex generators" in his intake.. as he mentioned he was trying to get rid of the vortex and swirling in the intake plenum. Air diffusers, splitters and stabilizers have very different flow characteristics then a vortex generator. Jet engines use "stator vanes" to adjust and direct the airflow (as well as convert velocity to pressure). They do not generate a vortex I don't know what you may call the "air stabilizers" in Jeff's plenum.. but I feel that they are not vortex generators Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Looks like Tony D covered what I was talking about on post #249. I read his after I posted mine. sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHO-Z Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 I think it would be neat to try making a aluminum casting of the plenum before you weld it together. From the pictures it looks like it would be a simple task the angles look like they would clear the molds, and if you want to produce more of them would significantly drop the cost involved. Just Dreaming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 Yeah, let's make a quick and dirty plaster sand-casting of the thing and store the plaster postitives someplace. Then again, pourable high-durometer urethane would work better... Yeah yeah yeah, let's do that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 ohhh yeh! we could do a plastic plenum.. like the LS series intake manifolds! ohhhhh baby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetleaf Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 If I could get a HSII mold of the manifold, I'd make some Urethane intakes. ( ; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Challenger Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 ohhh yeh! we could do a plastic plenum.. like the LS series intake manifolds! ohhhhh baby Yeah, If you go to a new car car show, 2 out of 3 cars will have some kind of composite/plastic plenum. Some look rinky dink while others look like painted aluminum. Either way, It would be very nice to get a mold before this is welded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 ohhh yeh! we could do a plastic plenum.. like the LS series intake manifolds! ohhhhh baby Not sure how long that would live, given the proximity to the exhaust manifold. The LS has crossflow heads, so the intake is isolated from the exhaust manifold heat. I guess if you are only talking about the plenum itself it might have a chance, but I'd think you'd want to do some serious heat shielding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 Come on guys.. Jeff put tons of hours into his design and has stated he is not interesting in producing them... Let's not wear out our welcome. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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