Mike Kelly's Zcar Project

[RebekahsZ]

I feel ya-I've chased every excuse to avoid going out to tear down my suspension to tighten a gland nut AGAIN! This forum helps me procrastinate and I can only offer emotional support for whatever you do. I hope you win the lottery this week and ship the car to MTI to have Matt's crew keep it up for you and you can just fly in in your Lear Jet, take off your ascot and buckle in. (Matt is gonna love that description of his operation)! Being builder AND driver is a lot to ask of yourself. I'm trying to be builder in the winter and driver in the summer. I just wish you could get a break.

[mark]

Buy mine. I'm too busy to play these days. Catch me at the right moment.

[RebekahsZ]

Only thing worse than one aggravating car is two aggravating cars. Feeling your pain, just went out to install new rotors (replacements came this week) and found that rears are wrong diameter and fronts are for 280z when I have 240z hubs. None of the replacement parts fit. Good thing I keep my guns and bullets stored in separate places.

[pparaska]

Buy mine. I'm too busy to play these days. Catch me at the right moment.

Mike, as much as I don't want to see you throw in the towel, if it meant getting Mark's car and selling yours, it'd be a hell of a nice replacement for yours, seeing as its so nicely sorted out.

[Mikelly]

Gollum, Thanks for reminding me not to be so open with my feelings or my thoughts... I guess there isn't a stock motor turbo car that hasn't had similar issues, and lord knows they don't every pop or eat head gaskets or any other issues. But you are right. Everything on this car is not Datsun, and every failure with this car is mine for building it in the first place, so all I can say is you are right.

 

Keith, is what it is. Right now I don't have the extra coin to spend at the rate I once had. If all works out, I will soon enough. Until then I will have to sort out things best I can.

 

Mark, Are you crazy? I will never own another Datsun Zcar if/when I call it quits with this nightmare.

 

Here is a little clip of my overjoyed and successful two days at VIR. Sorry the footage is so short. I couldnt fit it all on the movie, and only the best will do for you guys!

 

 

We are home and unpacked. My student made the last two days worth while, and I was able to get him not only pointed in the right direction for turning the proper fast line, but was able to get him smooth and consistant enough that the check-off ride to move to SOLO went flawless. The senior instructor commented that if his S2000 was faster, they would bump him to the RED rungroup. That is saying a whole lot. I guess that is where my talents must lay, helping others get faster. Lord knows I cant seem to drive my own car on the track. But hey, I am not complaining anymore... Not to this crowd... Thanks.

 

Mike

Edited July 4, 2013 by Mikelly

[mark]

No really buy my car please. There is not any Datsun left in it. It just looks like one......sort of

[Gollum]

Gollum, Thanks for reminding me not to be so open with my feelings or my thoughts...

 

 

I am not complaining anymore... Not to this crowd... Thanks.

 

Mike

 

Oh common' mike, you didn't have to take it like that. You've got quite a lot of us that do what we can to support you and your project. I never bad mouthed you for owning a Porsche, that's gotta count for something.

 

My point was just that you might have had similar issues if you owned a PLETHORA of other cars. Sure you can spend more money out front to own something like a Porsche and leave it mostly stock and have many less issues. But if you went back in time and found a NEW version of MANY cars the same exact thing could be said. Leave it stock and just do track-ready prep and they'll be reliable for seasons on end.

 

Yes these S30's are older cars. Yes they're projects, and that means most of all faults we can only call our own. These are NOT cars in or even close to their warranty period. These are vintage cars, and as such you're going to encounter issues. Yes I realize that MANY of your issues are NOT related to vintage parts, and I'm sorry for your run of bad luck. And I don't blame you for wanting to turn in the towel. I hope you enjoy whatever you DO end up getting out the track, be S30 or something else.

 

And in proper showing of how much I appreciate you Mike, I'll even give you some project porn.

 

 

Factory Five just started shipping the new 818. Comes in street or track trim, estimated completed cost is 15k and weighs 1500lbs.

 

 

 

Could also start tracking the Pony car until you sort something else out that's more reliable. Lots of people talking about how it's such a great car at the track - http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/06/review-2013-ford-mustang-gt-track-tested/

 

Or since the S30 is pretty much a track-only car, could consider the Ariel Atom or one of it's many more affordable competitors?

 

Just some thoughts, because I care about more than just your car mike.

[mark]

If mike would buy my car, I'd be all over that 818.

[NewZed]

On the overpressurization of the crankcase - instead of a vacuum pump maybe you just need bigger, freer flowing outlets.  In other words, the gases in the crankcase only cause pressure because they can't fit through whatever orifices you have available for them to travel through to get out.  The vacuum pump just pulls more gas (vapors) through a small, otherwise inadequately sized, hole.  Actually, it just removes gas from one side of the hole, giving whatever squeezes through more room to move once it gets through.  More/bigger crankcase ports, plumbed with bigger hoses might solve the problem. 

[clarkspeed]

I raced my Z for 5 years 3-4 times a year. Never missed a race or practice session. 100% reliable. The last 1-1/2 years I don't think I've finished a full 20 minute race or practice. The only sessions I finished were red flagged. And race weekends and not a small investment. I Fix what breaks and move to the next one. I don't dwell on it I know reliability will come back because I build for it. I appears you did also. Sometimes it takes some time get the bugs out. Everyone I know goes through the cycle.

[seanof30306]

Hey Mike,

 

I'm sorry you're so discouraged right now.  I've had similar experiences with a classic motorcycle I spent years trying to sort out.  I won't bore you with the details, but in over 4 years of working on it, it never went more than 400 miles without eating a battery and/or a charging system, and leaving me beside the road, jumping up and down on the kickstarter and cussing up a storm.  

 

The last time it did it, I kind of snapped, walked over a mile to a gas station, bought a gas can, filled it up, and bought a lighter.  I was absolutely bound and determined to light that sumbitch on fire.  As I was stomping back up the road to do it, a cop stopped and gave me a ride.

 

"Out of gas?" he asked.

 

"Nope"  I snarled.

 

"Watcha doin with the gas can, then?"

 

"I'm gonna light that sumbitch on fire!"  I announced, going into a long diatribe on the many evils of my devil-bike.

 

He rode around and let me vent for awhile, occasionally commiserating with me.  After I'd gotten it all out, I'd calmed down, and he lent me his phone to call AAA to tow it home ... again!  Nice cop.

 

I've been reading your thread for over a year, and I've been amazed at the craft and thought you've put into creating this amazing, unique, totally cool car. 

 

The thing I've taken away from this thread, time and again, is the enjoyment you appear to get from working on the car, not just driving it; how meticulously you go about your planning, research, and execution; how you sweat the small stuff.

 

In a post above, Clarkspeed spoke of not being overly worried about the reliability issues he's been having lately, as he builds for it, and knows the car will eventuallyl come back around.  I think there is great truth and wisdom in those words.  You have definitely built for reliability in your car as well.  You don't cut corners, you don't jury rig.  There will eventually be a payoff for that.

 

While a certain amount of grief and drama is to be expected in a build of such a customized work of automotive art, there is no question that you are having an inordinately high amount of it .... compare your build thread to cobramatt's, a car as unique as yours, built with the same type of thought, craftmanship, and attention to detail.  He's had nowhere near the bad luck you've had, and there's nothing that explains why that is.

 

In poker, sometime you run good, and sometimes you run bad.  There's nothing you can do about that.  All you can do is bring your "A" game to every hand you play.  Over time, making optimal plays always pays off, no matter what happens in the short run.  The mistake many players make when they're running bad is, they start doubting themselves, and changing the way they play the game.  It's the worst mistake they can make.

 

Now, I know there's nothing anyone can say right now that will change the way you're feeling.  It's something that's going to have to run it's course.  Set the car aside for a bit, and let your current rage and hatred for it run their course.  That's what I did with that @#$%&!!! KZ650.  Eventually, I started feeling the love for it again, bought a new Z1 wiring harness, and adapted it to fit.  Why hadn't I done that before?  Finally, after over 4 years of fighting it, it ran perfectly!

 

On my 2nd tank of gas after finally getting the gremlis worked out, I highsided off of it, broke one arm, fractured the other, fractured 3 ribs, fractured my left kneecap, and broke my left pinky toe.  They put a plate in my right arm, I missed 4 months of work, was in rehab for 8 months, and will only get about 50% of the mobility back in my right wrist.

 

The bike bent the handlebars and the left front blinker was torn off.  

 

I've renamed it "Christine".

 

Oh well, at least I finally solved those electrical problems!

 

Hopefully, you've had a small laugh at my expense.  Trust me, there will come a day when you will look back at your ordeal with this car and laugh as well.  It will make a great story to tell in the bull sessions in the pits.  I know it doesn't feel that way right now, but I definitely believe it will in the future.

 

You have built an amazing car.  You've done it with care, and thoughtfulness, and creativity.  You've sweated the details, and avoided the temptation to rush it, or cut corners.  At some point, that philosophy and execution ALWAYS pays off.

 

I'm sorry for all the trouble you've been having.

 

SP

 

PS:  I'm certainly no expert, but my impression is an inordinate amount of your problems appear to be tied to your oiling system.  

 

Good Luck!

Edited July 5, 2013 by seanof30306

[Mikelly]

So it's 0530 in the morning on a Friday, July 5th.  I've read and appreciate everything said by all of you, except Mark Icard.  Mark, NO I'm not buying that Orange you call a car, even if it does seem to run well, which reminds me I need to send you those pics of your car at Charlotte.

 

I'm most likely going to unload the car.  That said, I need it running in order to capitalize on one tenth my investment which means I need it fix.  The 383 stroker is being pulled and sold.  I am totally done with this motor and will not drive this car again with the current motor in place.  It will most likely come out of the car this weekend and the car will be put to bed while I sort other issues. If someone is interested in a forged/ internally balanced motor with aluminum heads/intake efi, ping me offline.  I'll take $2500 for it at this point, including clutchkit/bellhousing still attached.  and I'm dead serious. 

 

I'm also going to install an LS1 and get it running, 

 

To address a couple comments above...

 

Gollum, I thought I was going to be able to track the mustang, then I talked with no less than SIX guys on the east coast who have broken transmissions in these new Mustangs.  I'll be unloading mine for something I can drive everyday and at the track.  Most likely a Corvette or Porsche Cayman S. 

 

NewZed, I have half inch lines running from the valve covers to, first a setup that was plumbed AS FACTORY to a snorkel filter, and now to that electric pump, which is also 1/2 inch line fittings.  I don't know what else would be needed to vent crank pressure.

 

Clarkspeed, I hear you and can appreciate the wisdom shared by yourself and others here.  But I'm getting ready to turn 47 on Sunday.  I'd have hoped that after 12 years of building this thing I would have at least appreciated one full running session in this 2600 pound albatros hanging around my neck.  But no, sadly that is not to be.  On the plus side I can't complain about consumables because I can't seem to consume them.

 

Seanof30306 thank you for a wonderfully entertaining story.

[T-Bone028]

Earlier in your posts, you had mentioned if you have to pull the 383, you will also sell the car...I hope this viewpoint has changed!  Its always inspiring (and eye-opening) to read through your project pages to view the joys and heartaches of building/owning/driving a race-car.  I cant speak from experience (because I dont race), but it would seem that building and then racing a car is a horrible idea...cost, frustration, time commitment, etc.  But I do know that despite all the things that break on my Z, I'm never happier then when I finally get it working again and I'm behind the wheel.  I can only imagine that the same feeling would be had (if not greater) when a race-car is finally sorted out and everything works as intended for a full race/weekend/season/etc.

 

For extra inspiration (and a nice mental break from the Z) give the book "The Art of Racing in the Rain" by Garth Stein a read...$12 from Amazon.  Fictional story, but a great book nonetheless.

 

Lastly, I'm located a short drive from your neck of Virginia....I will humbly take ownership of your Z and provide safe-keeping.  Where else would you find someone that will accept a free race-car but the Z community? 

Edited July 5, 2013 by T-Bone028

[cobramatt]

No suggestions or advise coming from me.............Ok maybe just a little.

 

I can assure you that an LS setup has been a very good and reliable choice for me and has never been the weak link in my set up. I built my Corvette as my track car that I can flog and give joy rides in and the Z is only going to see the track if it's racing. I agree that the Z is not designed nor was ever engineered for doing endurance racing or repetitive track sessions. My crew chief and I were discussing your situation and the first thing he said was, "I bet he misses his Porsche". I hope for many reasons that you decide not to sell the car but take a step back and then make an educated decision without the frustration of breaking down again on track being fresh in your head. You bring a lot to the table and many people have come to know you as one of the go to people here on the forum and one to promote how wonderful Z Life is and can be. This throw in the towel attitude is going to pass, you will always be a Z guy and for many peoples sake, including mine, I hope you just change whats under the hood as it seems to be the common denominator in 90% of the break down issues. Put the shoe on the other foot.............If the car had run great at VIR, you would be talking about how absolutely wonderful it was to smoke just about every car on the track with a 40 something year old Z car. You would be saying how everybody at the track thought the car was a beast and were wowed by its performance. All the women in the surrounding area would hear of how incredibly good looking and manly you were while driving this incredible piece of art that you have created. Every guy at the track would want to be you.

 

You gonna give that all up because your engine let you down???? You gonna go get another Porsche and blend in with all the other Porsche guys. Wow, thats sounds like fun.

 

The last few race weekends I have had are over Sat. and Sun. Both days have an hour long race and are based on the same drivers, rules, and track. I have won both Saturday races overall. I beat the entire field starting from the third split. I don't mean I beat some thunder roadsters or e30's but some damn fast Porsches, Stock cars, GTR's, and the rest of the supporting cast. On Sunday I broke down due to something out of my control and was forced to DNF. The reason I point this out is people will come up to me in the paddock afterwards and express their sorrow and thoughts on the fact that I didn't finish. I first thank them for their condolences but quickly point out that if given my way I would rather take an overall race victory and beat everybody at the track for one of two days than finish both races in the middle of the pack. I could finish both days in the middle of the pack if I had a Porsche but I wouldn't look or feel near as cool as I do when I kick everybody's ass in a HYBRID Z that just like yours breathes fire and commands respect from everyone at the dance. 

 

I look forward to seeing your car on track in the near future with it's new LS setup. I know you can do it for much cheaper but if you want us to build you an LS fire-breathing dragon............bring me your car.

[jhm]

Whatever you decide to do, Mike, I've really enjoyed (and learned a lot from) your build thread.  And I agree with Matt.....it's pretty damn cool when a 40-year old "antique" Datsun beats a bunch of new, high-priced, high-tech cars at the track.  

 

Good luck with whatever direction you decide to pursue.

[Bigdeezs]

^^^^ Very much enjoyed reading that enjoyed that Cobramatt

[duragg]

Hey bro, when I am looking for ideas on my build one of the first threads I search is yours... and that's sayin something!

My race Z has been in surgery for 2 months with another coming, I know the frustrations.

 

For me, wrenching is half the fun (seen my tranny thread LOL?)

Failure is my cue to upgrade. Biggest lesson I've learned on track is that HP is so much less of a factor. Being light, bulletproof and sounding insane has been my savior.

 

Anyway: keep at it.

Tj

[Mikelly]

Mark and Matt, You two guys know what it is like to be out on track at speed chasing down cars of much higher caliber.  There  are very few old Datsun Zcars out there getting it done.  You two know how much is required to get to that level of performance.  So all that said, you two should understand my level of dissatesfaction and frustration.  I've missed several seasons of driving at that level because of this car and more specifically the issues associated with the current build. 

 

To me, a car guy first, it is more about the driver and the experience they are having in the car than about the car itself. I am a car guy, and always have said "I'm not a [insert brand/make/model here] guy.  I like cars and going fast in them".  So bang on the Porsches all you want, but a guy certainly spends more time driving (Which I enjoy far more than wrenching) and less time "troubleshooting" the next round of headaches.  I would be less critical and less "bitchy" about it I'm sure, if I had more actual drive time in this car.  But I don't.  I took the car to Watkins Glen Newyork three years ago where the Datsun was the marque of honor.  I barely got the car to the "all Datsun" show grounds.  I couldn't even enjoy laps in the car on the track because of bugs... Every time I've had it at the track over the last three years, I get a few shake down laps, and then it gets put in the trailer.  Yet, in the nearly FIVE YEARS I owned that little black "evil" Porsche Turbo it was down at the track ONCE out of 54 DAYS on track and that failure was My fault for not properly attaching a line to the slave cylinder.  ONE TIME in five years.  Really hard to argue that.  I don't think I'm asking to much of my car to simply expect to be able to go out and enjoy a 20-30 minute track session so I can do simple things like make a decision on shock settings or tire pressures so I can actually SEE if the car has potenial to actually chase down higher HP cars.  I can't even tell any of you with any level of certainty that this car is cabable of ANYTHING other than sitting in the pits and draining my wallet even more.  And I should probably not put this in print for fear of damaging any chance to get $15-20K out of the car, but at this point I don't know that the car will be fast enough to keep up with a well sorted 4 cylinder track car.  THAT is a sad footnote, but that is the honest truth because I can't drive the damned thing long enough to even ensure my brake bias is properly set.  So while you guys are waxing poetic about the fanciful dreams of the mighty Datsun V8 Zcar out there laying down the smack on track to much higher caliber cars, to me it's nothing more than a pipe dream... I am a DAMNED good driver.  I just simply need a DAMNED reliable car to get me where I want to be.  Wrenching every spare moment on something that isn't returning dividends is something I'm no longer interested in.  Sorry, but the hard work and effort has to bear fruit or the tree gets cut down.  It is our reality in life.

 

Anyway, enough of that...

 

I put the car in the air yesterday afternoon and started it with the breather hoses disconnected so the motor could vent to the atmosphere.  I managed to start the car with a remote starter trigger mounted under the hood.  Of course for some reason the fuel pump isn't getting power, and the in car starter button isn't getting power.  So I went ahead and removed the dash.  I'll start de-bugging whatever electrical issue there is and sort all that out and make damned sure that is resolved before I pull the 383 stroker out.  My plan right now is to pull the motor out and assess the seals in the motor.  Oil was pushed out of the front main seal and the oil pan.  So regardless the motor will need to be "regasketed" in those areas.  Fortunately the oil didn't come out of the dipstick.  I'll get the motor cleaned up, recheck the leakdown numbers, incase a buyer is interested, and just get it ready to move to someone else who will certainly get a great deal.  I am going to sell the EFI intake/injectors/rails/Tbody separately because I feel that I can recoupe some of my losses by doing so.  I have $1500 in the last rebuild on this motor from back in December, which included new rings and bearings, and I'll take a peak at the bearings while the pan is off, but there should be zero wear on a motor with less than an hour actual run/drive time since rebuild. 

 

After that, I'm not sure.  Part of me wants to throw an LS1 stock into the car, and then put it up for sale.  Running and driving it will fetch a higher price than as a roller.  Of course I could part it out and get a fair price for all the parts.  I know all that carbon fiber is worth a decent price, along with the suspension/brakes/wheels/tires... The complete Q45 rear setup should bring a fair amount considering the axles alone would cost $1000 to duplicate.  And that TKO trans would go quick...  I've calculated in my head and I could part the whole car out and walk away with about $15K...If I went that route, I'm thinking I would crush the chassis to get back at the bitch for stealing 12 years of my life with such poor results in the process.  There has to be something cathartic about that, right?  

Edited July 6, 2013 by Mikelly

[rags]

I understand your frustration but wouldn't you be crushing the wrong part of the car? I mean looking back on all the failures it is apparent that the motor and wiring are what has been giving you trouble all of these years. A GM crate LS motor controlled by a GM ECU would have taken those issues out of the equation and let you concentrate on fine tuning the driving experience of the car. In your last post you made it clear that the German engineers at the factory Porsche plant are much better engine builders than the shop that has been building your 383 that you are still having blow by problems with. I'm sure the engineers at GM can match that reliability.

I apologize for being so blunt but the people who have built reliable cars on this forum have been saying the same thing over and over, cut your losses on the 383 and install an LS based motor and ECU.

[pparaska]

If the idea is that a crate LS1 with standard harness would fix most of the reliability issues, then it follows that a WELL BUILT gen I SBC (or ANY race-prepped engine used reliably in racing over the past decades) and a standard harness would also provide an equal boost in overall reliability for this Z. People have been reliably racing old Corvettes, Camaros, etc. for decades with well prepared Gen I SBCs.

 

Will a Z (or any car not designed from the original manufacturer or pro tuner to truly handle the rigors of track use) have the reliability of a car like the Porsches you've had? Probably not.but obviously people have built all manner of track cars starting with manufacturer's cars other than Porsche.

 

If you are truly done with the SBC, then you've laid out the options well. Someone will get a nicely built Z with or without an LS1, or several will get nice parts.

 

I'm seeing a pro-built, fully-sorted trackcar or racecar in your future though, as I have a feeling you are done with it this time and ready to go to the next level and buy a car ready to reliably take to the track - now.