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Apex Engineered Track Attack - anyone actually running it yet?


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On 1/29/2021 at 1:26 AM, 260DET said:

Sometimes a reality check is needed and that can be provided here by looking at Z race cars and their results. The fastest Z's have always used the basic stock suspension, it's great that there are those who think outside the box and who are willing to put their $ where their mouth is, Once they do that however they need to turn a profit so they have to be commited to their product. What does not seem to be widely understood by potential users is the complexity involved in any suspension redesign. At the very least the actual dimensions and locations of all components needs to be established using proven methods. Until that is done we have what is basically promotional comment. Bye, getting real is often not popular.

 

Race cars are controlled by the rules established for each class, so there are as many "fastest Z's" as there are classes. Obviously, we wouldn't have a cottage industry built around modifying the stock design if it went out and won every race in showroom form. There's a lot of thoughts about how the Track Attack design "looks", but so far we haven't conclusively laid out any specific ways in which the design is deficient. 

 

Since we don't know much, let's start with what we do:

 

1:     There could be noise, harshness, and durability issues due to the large number of heim joints - especially on the street.

2:     The relationship between the front and rear suspension dynamics need to be studied to determine their overall impact on car control.  (good discussion to be had here)

 

Adjustability, weights, installation issues, and impact upon the drivability and performance characteristics of the car are all still unknowns - as are any cost/benefit ratios for various applications.

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It would be helpful certainly, but I think in general, Apex and Techno (to name a few) aren't making parts which require that level of explanation. Quick steer knuckles, adjustable sway bars and RCA b

As jhm said, a lot of the track attack stuff is very much not final versions and has run into some hangups for some people. Ohm is great to work with in my experience but he straightforward about the

It´s just because it´s a Porsche. They did massive mistake with putting an engine in back of the car. Since then they are sruggling with it. Suspension and car dynamics are everything with weight

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On 1/28/2021 at 11:26 PM, 260DET said:

Sometimes a reality check is needed and that can be provided here by looking at Z race cars and their results. The fastest Z's have always used the basic stock suspension, it's great that there are those who think outside the box and who are willing to put their $ where their mouth is, Once they do that however they need to turn a profit so they have to be commited to their product. What does not seem to be widely understood by potential users is the complexity involved in any suspension redesign. At the very least the actual dimensions and locations of all components needs to be established using proven methods. Until that is done we have what is basically promotional comment. Bye, getting real is often not popular.

  

I don't think there is any question.  Most of the aftermarket suspensions for the Z completely mimic the stock design, and just add a bit of adjustability to suit wide tires, lowered cars, track focused use, etc.  They also include poly bushings and Heim joints to cater to drivers who want tighter handling and will tolerate more NVH than the designers at Nissan could have gotten away with designing into the factory car.  I am using the T3 setup and that is definitely the path that they followed.

 

The reason Apex is getting more scrutiny here is because they went a bit further than that, not to mention have displayed some issues with meeting deadlines and getting parts out.

 

You won't get any hate from me. 

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10 hours ago, Coelocanth81 said:

1:     There could be noise, harshness, and durability issues due to the large number of heim joints - especially on the street.

2:     The relationship between the front and rear suspension dynamics need to be studied to determine their overall impact on car control.  (good discussion to be had here)

Heims joints on street cars are pretty well documented at this point, no huge mystery. Those who are sensitive won't like it, those who aren't will.

I've told this story many times, but I took my dad for a ride in my Z when he was in his mid 70s, had stock ball joints but otherwise all heims jointed front end, with G Machine aluminum/delrin in the back, coilovers, 200/250 springs and Illuminas, and on getting out his comment was about how comfortable the Recaro seat was. Others complain about poly bushings and the stiff ride from lowering springs. 

Totally agree on point 2, and with Richard's point about the difficulty of proper suspension design. I would point out that all of your GT class SCCA racers are using SLA front ends and quick change solid axle rears, so at some point you have to decide what a Z is and when one is modded to the point that it no longer qualifies.

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11 hours ago, JMortensen said:

I would point out that all of your GT class SCCA racers are using SLA front ends and quick change solid axle rears, so at some point you have to decide what a Z is and when one is modded to the point that it no longer qualifies.

 

Like engine swaps, I view this suspension package as a fairly substantial re-invention of the car.  I was looking at the AlterKtion suspension/steering package for the late 60's early 70's Mopars in much the same way. To some extent, you give up the very essence of a car the moment you dream of further empowering it. Mike Kelly talked about how far his project had taken him from the simple joy of driving a stock Z, and there's no doubt about how far one could go down the rabbit hole.

 

I might try to pick Ohm's brain a bit more. I really don't want to trouble him too much - as I'm not a customer yet. I'd like to know what specific criteria he had in mind when designing the product. I understand the motivation for the rear suspension; it's a bolt-on solution for handling greater power, more tire clearance, and more adjustability for a variety of setups. I think the jury's out for me on the dual control arm front suspension, though. Like some of the other commenters, I'm not convinced that the McPherson strut front end is in need of a complete replacement. 

Edited by Coelocanth81
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Any feed back yet?

im debating on doing it myself I really want to use it but I’m not a huge car guy going into this so I have a lot of learning to do. The owner has been super responsive to my questions but still a ton of questions to be answered. What worries me is I cannot find one person who has started this suspension actually on the road . Even the YouTube guy who installed it hasn’t got his car on the road.

I might bite the bullet anyways and risk a lot of money if I can a good list of instructions and modifications required to complete the swap.

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I see 3-4 people on instagram showing off their recieved kits. Its the fun an exciting stage before they realize the difficulty and adjustment necessary to perform the install. My guess is it will be another 4-6 months before someone completes the install themselves from the Black Friday purchases. If they give it to a shop, might start seeing some done in a month or two. I'm sure we will have a lot of feedback by 2022! 

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7 minutes ago, AydinZ71 said:

I see 3-4 people on instagram showing off their recieved kits. Its the fun an exciting stage before they realize the difficulty and adjustment necessary to perform the install. My guess is it will be another 4-6 months before someone completes the install themselves from the Black Friday purchases. If they give it to a shop, might start seeing some done in a month or two. I'm sure we will have a lot of feedback by 2022! 

 

Careful.... you're getting close to the edge there.

 

Can you post the Instagram links?  Are they "unboxing" videos?

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27 minutes ago, NewZed said:

 

Careful.... you're getting close to the edge there.

 

Can you post the Instagram links?  Are they "unboxing" videos?


sorry didn’t mean to cause any trouble. They were just on my “feed”. Tried looking just now but I don’t recall the specific user names. They were all the parts laid out on the floor. One was laid out in the kitchen floor. This was over the course of the past few months.


If my post had any “point” at all, it would

be that the kit will take quite some time to install. It’s a lot of work. Hence, it might be a while before we get a lot of direct feedback on the performance. 
 

 

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38 minutes ago, NewZed said:

 

Careful.... you're getting close to the edge there.

 

Can you post the Instagram links?  Are they "unboxing" videos?

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ__dlgsZD6/

 

12 hours ago, Joe0690 said:

Any feed back yet?

im debating on doing it myself I really want to use it but I’m not a huge car guy going into this so I have a lot of learning to do. The owner has been super responsive to my questions but still a ton of questions to be answered. What worries me is I cannot find one person who has started this suspension actually on the road . Even the YouTube guy who installed it hasn’t got his car on the road.

I might bite the bullet anyways and risk a lot of money if I can a good list of instructions and modifications required to complete the swap.

 What would you like to know? I'm running their rear subframe, front control arms with tension rods and rear control arms. Lots of other custom parts too, but I might have some info you're looking for!

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12 minutes ago, AydinZ71 said:


sorry didn’t mean to cause any trouble.

 

 

I was joking about the fact that the last two months worth of posts have been erased, apparently because they were too critical of the product.  Only positive posts are allowed now, apparently, and yours was suggesting that people might not have the fitment that they thought were going to get.  It might be too much, I guess we'll find out.

 

52 minutes ago, AydinZ71 said:

realize the difficulty and adjustment necessary to perform the install.

 

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7 minutes ago, Ben280 said:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ__dlgsZD6/

 

 What would you like to know? I'm running their rear subframe, front control arms with tension rods and rear control arms. Lots of other custom parts too, but I might have some info you're looking for!

 

I just thought it would be good to see the progress on Hybridz.  The point of the thread.  Good luck.  

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Just now, Ben280 said:

You mean the posts living happily over in the "Apex 8.8 Subframe Review" thread locked by our dear friend Tube80z?

 

I thought they were in this one.  My mistake.  Still, the same thoughts about criticizing apply.  Be careful.

 

Sorry tube, I got my Apex threads confused.

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47 minutes ago, NewZed said:

I thought they were in this one.  My mistake.  Still, the same thoughts about criticizing apply.  Be careful.

 

Sorry tube, I got my Apex threads confused.


I don't think anyone's saying don't be critical. The other thread just got locked for going off topic, don't make this one go the same direction or get thrown it in the shed, you should know nothing here gets deleted short of users editing their own posts or broken links/images.

 

@Joe0690, @Ben280 is your go-to for how some of the parts perform if you want to ask someone with genuine experience with the products in hard use. Unfortunately I think I've only seen one install of the full track attack kit from Hell-Z and have seen no updates in a year at least. Most Datsun folks just don't have the money to run it, and I think if you look at comments from @JMortensen you'll note the real world benefit of the kit is questionable, or at least unproven.

 

FWIW, I'm happy with the rear arms and I'm currently waiting on the fronts so I can dial in my front caster, but I'm also pretty much entirely spirited street use and cruising on those parts.

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 So I’ve been in contact with the owner mostly through Facebook. He told me he will be setting up a series of videos on the installation he’s working with a shop . I think that’s a big step in the right direction . I’m not rich or anything but unless I start hearing some really bad stuff about it’s performance I’m probably going to go for it. But I have time, even the owner suggested I wait until the series of videos come out so I can see how much is involved before jumping in. But if more and more people are getting them I’m sure soon enough we will start hearing some real world experience .

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On 4/20/2021 at 5:21 PM, NewZed said:

 

I thought they were in this one.  My mistake.  Still, the same thoughts about criticizing apply.  Be careful.

 

Sorry tube, I got my Apex threads confused.

 

I'll take a moment to reply to the tone of this comment.  On HybridZ we (admins) are not suppressing feedback about vendors.  What we are doing is trying to make sure a thread stays on topic so that future users will be able to use search and find good quality content that is helpful and relevant to their search.  Ideally the original thread should have stayed on topic and a new thread started about vendor feedback.  A link could be left in the technical thread and both discussions could happen and be more likely to be found be search in the future.

 

Hope that helps,

Cary  

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7 minutes ago, tube80z said:

 

I'll take a moment to reply to the tone of this comment.  On HybridZ we (admins) are not suppressing feedback about vendors.  What we are doing is trying to make sure a thread stays on topic so that future users will be able to use search and find good quality content that is helpful and relevant to their search.  Ideally the original thread should have stayed on topic and a new thread started about vendor feedback.  A link could be left in the technical thread and both discussions could happen and be more likely to be found be search in the future.

 

Hope that helps,

Cary 

 

I appreciate it, Cary. This thread got a little sideways there for a minute. I didn't see what happened on the other one. 

9 hours ago, 260DET said:

As a general observation I don't understand why inevitably aftermarket suspension suppliers don't publish any changes they make over stock specs and the reasons for such changes. It would save so much questioning plus add credibility to their products. 

 

Agreed. It seems perilous for a manufacturer to let the users control that narrative. Hopefully some more information will be forthcoming.

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