HybridZ vs contemporary cars: RE: How Fast, really?

[Tombarace14]

I got to ride in Jody's Z w/ an LT1 and 6 speed that made my sport bike feel slow at the hybrid shindig. The way I see it put 250 plus HP in a 2500lbs or less car, its bound to be quick. Thats just my 2 cents.

[280zwitha383]

I have a relatively mild build and haven't seen any Vipers of Vettes that pose a threat, highway roll ons, stoplight wars. At the drags, Local Z06 took a big shot of NX to beat me, and I was still at his rear tire at the end of the 1/4. Its unreal how bad you can beat up so many factory performance cars, Vipers, Vettes, GTOs, Mustangs. Sure they have more technology, refinement, safety. Its just so damn satisfying to blow one of the high dollar cars into the weeds. Pick your battles, check the width of your wallet, then build one accordingly. Of course they're out there, but uncommon to see a faster cars being daily driven.

 

What are you running in the 1/4?

[Guest Mike]

Not the same type of car but (perhaps) on topic anyway?? Many years ago, I had a 1972 Firebird Formula 400 with high gears and a 160 MPH speedo. On an open road, I pegged that speedo and it was stable. This was a stupid thing to do.

 

That said, I don't see why a 240/260/280 Z-car can't be made to do the same thing. It's a matter of setting up the suspension and modding the body to minimize lift and facilitate stabilization. Yes... I'm speaking from my butt.

[blueovalz]

I feel like I'm playing catchup. Up until two weeks ago, I'd not been out-pulled by anything. Then a 2005 Viper handed me my...

 

Typical life, if you can't adapt, change, compete...you'll be left behind.

[John Scott]

What are you running in the 1/4?

 

12.2/ 115.5 at a 7800 foot Density Altitude. Absolute baro 24.01.

You have to compare apples with apples, We all race on the hill up here, and envy even the lower tracks 'Bad" days. Our DAs get up to 10,000'+Most stock Z06s run in the low 13s, a few in the high 12s. The '07 should be one to look out for, though I think I'll still have it for lunch. he latest record for new DR stock Vette was 10.85 at a minus 850 feet DA (sheesh) converts to a low 12 on a "good" 7000' day at Bandimere

[johnc]

Having built a 240Z that beat modified Vipers and C5 Z06 Corvettes on a road race track I can say that a $15,000 240Z will not beat a mostly stock Viper or Z06 Corvette on a road race track if the cars are on DOT-R tires and are driven by competent drivers. Look at the lap records for T1 cars on the tracks near you and then compare those times with the ITS lap records and see what I mean. Typical T1 lap times are about 2 to 3 seconds faster then ITS.

 

FYI... there are few Hybrid 240Zs that can match the ITS 240Z lap times on most tracks. More are being built every day but that's still the standard by which fast road race 240Zs are judged.

[Michael]

We’re talking hobby-cars here. With exquisitely honed skills you can indeed add the climate control and other creature comforts, the sound deadening and so forth, but for the vast majority of hobbyists this is impossible. For most of us the daily reliability and user-friendliness of our cars is limited more by our own skills than by the concept itself. Nevertheless, upgrading a 35 year old shell to modern all-around standards just does not sound like a wise undertaking, even for professional hot-rod shops charging by the hour.

 

The consensus, I’d venture to say, would be that a V8 Z is a good value for raw performance, but it should be regarded as a lighter, better-handling muscle car - and not as an apples-to-apples competitor to an E90 M3. Are there 1967 Camaros with great highway manners and a user-friendly passenger compartment? Yes, but they are very few, cost $100K, and probably don’t exactly go 10’s at the strip. Instead compare a $15K hot-rodded Z (V8 or turbo L6) to a $15K or even $30K hot rodded first-generation Camaro. Almost certainly the Z will out-accelerate, out-handle and out-brake the Camaro.

 

After doing my swap I realized that much of the frustration with the care and feeding of these cars isn’t with the swap itself, but with a high performance old-school engine in general. So again, it’s like a muscle car, but with a lower price tag, sleeker body and 800 lbs less weight.

 

From personal experience... my car is in a state of deplorable lack of tune, and even so, at least going by peronal perception, the acceleration is incomparably greater than in any car in which I've been driver or passenger. This includes several stock or lightly-modded C5 Corvettes and a lightly modded E36 M3. Of course, performance under rigorously enforced conditions such as road racing on a track would probably be abyssmal, given the shoddy suspension, spongy brakes and 15 year old crusty-bread tires. But that is more the fault of the owner than of the car.

[RTz]

We’re talking hobby-cars here. With exquisitely honed skills you can indeed add the climate control and other creature comforts, the sound deadening and so forth, but for the vast majority of hobbyists this is impossible. For most of us the daily reliability and user-friendliness of our cars is limited more by our own skills than by the concept itself. Nevertheless, upgrading a 35 year old shell to modern all-around standards just does not sound like a wise undertaking, even for professional hot-rod shops charging by the hour.

 

The consensus, I’d venture to say, would be that a V8 Z is a good value for raw performance, but it should be regarded as a lighter, better-handling muscle car - and not as an apples-to-apples competitor to an E90 M3. Are there 1967 Camaros with great highway manners and a user-friendly passenger compartment? Yes, but they are very few, cost $100K, and probably don’t exactly go 10’s at the strip. Instead compare a $15K hot-rodded Z (V8 or turbo L6) to a $15K or even $30K hot rodded first-generation Camaro. Almost certainly the Z will out-accelerate, out-handle and out-brake the Camaro.

 

After doing my swap I realized that much of the frustration with the care and feeding of these cars isn’t with the swap itself, but with a high performance old-school engine in general. So again, it’s like a muscle car, but with a lower price tag, sleeker body and 800 lbs less weight.

 

From personal experience... my car is in a state of deplorable lack of tune, and even so, at least going by peronal perception, the acceleration is incomparably greater than in any car in which I've been driver or passenger. This includes several stock or lightly-modded C5 Corvettes and a lightly modded E36 M3. Of course, performance under rigorously enforced conditions such as road racing on a track would probably be abyssmal, given the shoddy suspension, spongy brakes and 15 year old crusty-bread tires. But that is more the fault of the owner than of the car.

 

I'd have to agree with the majority of Michaels thoughts. The Z is a good 'canvas'. Reading between the lines... YOU are the painter. YOU are the creator. YOU have to do the work. YOU have to spend 116 hours to figure out which sound deadening material provides the desired effect, without the weight penalty, because you know, if you gain much weight, you may as well have bought a heavy car that will survive (more importantly, you'll survive) a sizable impact. Were talking about ONE issue among hundreds.

 

The cars that are done WELL (in my opinion) are done by people that have literally built a car from scratch. They have thought about the details. THIS is where its at. Anybody can spend money on catalog parts. Anybody can fit them to any car.

 

The people that assemble a car worth driving are ARTISTS.

 

If you're into determination, education, expression, and 'The Experience', then a "Hybrid Z" is justifiable.

 

If you want lap times 'for the dollar' then choose another car.

 

...then again, I could be wrong.

[boodlefoof]

It's the LIFT, not the drag that worries me.

 

The land speed record is 178 or somewhere thereabouts for a Z with a G nose. You can go really fast if you have enough hp. That's not up for debate. Whether or not you can effectively control the car on anything other than a dry lake bed at 180+, that's the issue.

 

 

Jon, you forgot to add that you also need some iron testicles! We'll see if I have them when the time comes to give it a try. I'm hoping to hit 200+ in mine when it is finished.

 

Check out the Electromotive 280ZX. Article says they made it to 196.

 

http://zhome.com/History/Electramotive/DevTrubo.htm

[OlderThanMe]

Modified Zs wil always keep up with the modern supercars...

back in the day... GT40 getting passed on the outside by this L6 Z:-)

[snowboardin58]

you can always add engine, but theres a limit with lighter and the Z has a very light base weight..

[hoov100]

the only problem i have with older z's is that they dont take crashes very good, you get rear ended even doing 10mph and insurance is more then likely going to total it, we have all seen the "wrecked z" thread.

[Globerunner513]

^^especially with no rear bumper

[Phantom]

I can't believe I just now saw this thread. I must chime in. My 280Z is running an essentially stock Z28 LS1 with a T56 behind it. It dyno'd at 311 RWHP which equates to about 390 at the flywheel. The car has dynomat throughout with a very thick custom carpet. The interior is full Katzkin leather. It has a custom 500 watt Alpine 7 speaker stereo system. It has disk brakes front and rear and an AC system that holds its own to 100 degrees. It also has a 4-pt. roll bar and front and rear strut tower braces. It has turned a 12.9@110 in the quarter and raced at Texas Motor Speedway against Ferrari, Lotus, Panoz, Corvette, Mazda. Some I passed, some passed me - and that was before the brake upgrade. The car scales at 3,000 lbs, 1440 on the nose and 1560 on the tail. It is stone cold reliable and has been used as a daily driver for the 15 years I've owned it, including the 4 years since the drivetrain upgrade. Yes, it has manual steering. No, it doesn't have cruise control or a nav system. Is it fun to drive. Not at all - it is an absolute blast!

Bottom line - the car can be built to do pretty much whatever you want it to do but it's basic architecture will keep it from running with the guys who do the same with a newer chassis.

[v80z]

LESD

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Now my z is no thing of beauty by any means. My goal was to build as quick and as fast a car as I could that was street legal and could be used for track events but not wreck the family budget. After 2years I am getting close to my goal. To date I have approximately $5k -$6k in it and would sell it for $5k. It has been drivable for about a year. Building the car and changing the car is the most satisfying. Driving the car is thesecond most satisfying. But what really kicks is when a friend who owns a 2004 Z06 wants to drive your car and when he is done hops out and tells you it is a beast. He and I lined up 0-60 and we ran even. His car the Z06 is a great car well engineered gran tourismo. I have raced gt2 scca and su in NASA. Even brought home one trophy. Both of my zcars have proven they can beat up on the best of them at a fraction of the cost. That is the kick!!!!!

[Hartspank]

I was driving a freekin' Kia Sedona minivan. Hate to admit it, but it would probably keep up with my na zx! 1FSTKIA:eek:

[Mikelly]

Here's a perspective from the other side of the fence...

 

I've owned fast Zcars, and am building two... One for Jim McNemar, and one for myself. Both have SBCs, custom large brake kits, custom cages, and upgraded drivelines... Both weigh a BUNCH more than a stock Zcar. My car is damned near stripped and I bet it will still weigh in at 2500# and that's without inner doors, door hardware, door and side window glass, stereo, hvac system, and a lot of stock metal trimmed out... The 14 point cage and other parts will more than tripple the weight I took out.

 

I've spoken with a number of guys here who have rolled their Zcars up on the scales and found that their "light weight" zcar is a pig at 3000+ pounds... They're approaching the weight of a 2004 Z06 Corvette, Which has better brakes stock, better suspension design stock, and much wider tires on a MUCH wider chassis STOCK. What this all equates to is higher speeds more safely. I spun my modified C5 at well over 100 miles per hour and the car dug into the dirt hard with the right front wheel, causing it to lose air pressure, but NOT allowing the car to roll. Every single person who saw that footage agreed that if I'd been in the Zcar, it would have rolled, because it doesn't have as wide a stance. Sure, we can make these Zcars go faster, because of a "slight" advantage in weight (Although looking at Jon M.s and bjhines cages I'm seriously wondering ), but how safe will it be at 9/10ths when you get that wiggle at the wrong spot on track... Can you save it before it swaps ends on you? After years and years of drving around modern technology brakes and suspension, can you adapt back to non-abs brake systems?

 

These are questions I ask myself when I come off a weekend like I had two weekends ago, where I've been out of a Zcar for a very long time, and been in these "supercars" we all dream of beating... Will a HybridZ be faster than a modern car? To 150? Sure... To 175? Maybe. Will you be as safe? Unless you have a cage and some seriously good driving skills (Like the handful of drivers I've seen in them on the east coast and west coast), I'm not sure you'll be able to "save it" when you need to most.

 

Turbo charged or V8. These cars add weight to the calculation... NO, the V8 w/aluminum heads/accessories isn't heavier. But add in the appropriate driveline and driveline safety, and you add back in a LOT of weight... Blow proof bellhousing? 60#. Upgrade to Q45 axles? You now have two 30# dumbells for axles! Driveshaft hoop? Add another 15#! All this "safety" adds up.

 

Two weekends ago at the THSCC event I saw John Tedder drive his ass off in a relatively mild built 240Z. No cage, just a four point bar. Nothing really exotic, just parts that work. His car is probably the best east coast example of the basic HybridZ platform to make work. Add John's extraordinary driving skills (John is an instructor at CMP) and you have the perfect mix of minimalist HybridZcar with GREAT driving skills... But the point here isn't to bragg about John, or his car. It's to illustrate that I can think of John and maybe four others here on the east coast who are capable of safely piloting a Z like his to within 4/10s of a second of a highly modified 2004 GT3 Porsche's times.

 

Build you car to suit your needs. But don't forget to BUILD the DRIVER to compliment the car's abilities. Without those, you'll be another hack like me, thrashing about on the track and wondering why you should be faster than you are...

 

Mike

[HS30-H]

Modified Zs wil always keep up with the modern supercars...

back in the day... GT40 getting passed on the outside by this L6 Z:-)

 

 

"Back in the day"? That race was only a few years ago, and I was there.

 

The GT40 was not getting "passed on the outside" - it was moving out of the way to let the GT40 take the racing line. The GT40 was being driven well within its capabilities, whilst the Z was on the ragged edge.

 

And there was a Morgan in the same race that put half a lap of the Silverstone club circuit on both of them..........

[ZR8ED]

I have thought of this over the years of my Z ownership. (18 yrs) I still own my first Z, and many others have come and gone.

 

I really enjoyed the look and feel of the car. Its performance for an "older" car was pretty good. Then I learned of the history, the racing heritage, the rabid following these cars created, and last but not least, I learned of the cars potential to be a near super car for less than super car prices. (at least super car performance back in the early days of my Z ownership)

 

I took to the love of being the underdog, the little guy, “the little engine than could†hehehe. I slowly built the car into a low to mid 14 second, common V8 basher that would simply destroy most of the more common sports and muscle cars of the day whether it was the quarter mile or road courses. Rarely could another car beat me in both of those categories which I carried as a personal badge of pride for my car, and to an extent, my budding driving skills.

 

The car evolved into a reliable, trustworthy street machine that I learned to trust as I learned how far I could consistently push the car. Maintenance was always a time and money factor that could never truly be avoided if I wanted to push the car to its or my limits.

 

I then got the bug for more power, more comfort, more more more. I wanted to keep ahead of the newer more sophisticated, entry level sports cars that were being produced with stunning performance compared to super cars of days gone by.

 

I took it as a challenge, and when I had the money, time and desire to force my old technology Z to try to be a front runner in performance. Ie MK4 Supra’s, c5 vettes, 1st gen vipers, low level modern Porsches and Ferraris, I succeeded in spending a ton of money and time to reach close to their levels (their stock to mild BPU performance ranges) I have now ended up with a monster of car, than can hang with them in many, but not all of their performance capabilities. I no longer enjoy the bullet proof reliability that I once had. Increased hp takes its toll on the rest of the support systems. I have enough time and money invested, I am not as eager to push the car to its limits, at least not for extended periods of time. The car is fast enough that I have now seen many of the cars old technologies limits, and to overcome them now will take significant $ and time. I can easily hit 150mph, but I just don’t have the technology, $ and time to build it to push past that limit. The car is now beyond my personal driving skills, as I can’t drive it hard on the street, and with little track time each season, I will not likely ever get enough seat time to be able to drive the car to its limits.

 

Now don’t take this the wrong way. I love my Z, but if I could do it again, I would do it very differently, but I have enjoyed my Z ownership, and I would do it all over again!

I think that if you really want a super car in all of the aspects of owning a modern sports car, I think that a Z is an excellent candidate for the challenge, but it is an extremely difficult road, full of more compromises than you may think. Z cars are best at being old school sports cars, that can more than hold their own with any other old school cars on the road. The fact that a Hybrid Z can smoke most under $50K new cars is just a bonus, and is not going to be a sustainable measurement for our cars performance.

[wigenOut-S30]

Here is a nice video of a Z against alot of newer performance car, The camera car is a Viper.