Six_Shooter Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I really can't see a 5 point harness (without using the anti-submarine belt) allowing an occupant to submarine any easier than a stock 3 point, UNLESS it's not been adjusted properly. I find that with most harnesses the lap portion is actually lower on my pelvic region, making it even more difficult for me to submarine, though that could break my hip bones easier it would seem, but the anti-submarine belt won't raise the lap belts any higher either. Also the harnesses ARE designed to release even with great pressure on the clasp, these are designed for racing where vehicles can get upside down. OEM belts are not designed with this in mind and is why most belts in a rollover need to be cut instead of unclasped. Try pulling on your belt next time you unclasp it, it won't be easy. Racing harnesses, are designed different and well there are different harness clasp styles, but most with a lever anyway will be easy enough to unclasp when upside down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buZy Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I was comparing ideas of a 4 point harness to the OEM 3 point type. Not a 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 thanks for the link. when i searched i came up with that link and its also the way i will be installing my harness. im not trying to fool cops. i am just wondering if it will get my in trouble on the street. by the sound of it, it wont be a problem. It really depends on the officer. Most harnesses aren't DOT certified/approved and this technically means you aren't wearing and approved belt. It's not a safety thing at all. Here in Oregon I know two people that got seat belt tickets for wearing a harness. If I had to guess they pissed off the officer who pulled them over. I think Schroth and a few others have street harnesses that are certified. I know of no actual race harnesses that are. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrumpetRhapsody Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 So... then does anyone have any good suggestions for both a track and street legal 4 or 5 point harness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 is there a roll cage that has the harness bars already built in? ive seen a few but they dont have both driver and passenger sides. its usually just the drivers side that has the bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I really can't see a 5 point harness (without using the anti-submarine belt) allowing an occupant to submarine any easier than a stock 3 point, UNLESS it's not been adjusted properly. They do and every single race sanctioning body and race harness maker in the world says to never run a 5 or 6 point harness without the sub belts. None of us are any smarter or more experienced the FIA, SCCA, NASA, NASCAR, ALMS, IRL, ChampCar, GrandAM, etc. OEM style lap and shoulder belts are designed to remain low on the hips and have the occupant's torso twist slightly in a frontal impact. This slight twist keeps the torso from sliding under the lap belt. The Schroth DOT approved 4 point harness does the exact same thing by adding their ASM device to the inside shoulder harness. The ASM device allows that shoulder harness to stretch a bit more then the outside shoulder harness which twists the hips and keeps the torso from submarining. Follow the harness manufacturer's installaiton instructions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six_Shooter Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I've seen more people submarine using stock belts than using only 4 points of a 5 point harness. I can understand you're theory of the body twist, but I still can't see how one would be any more suseptable to submarining than with a stock belt, especially considering that the anti-submarine belt is or at least used to be an option. I was involved in an accident, I was a passenger in a car that was T-boned, the other people both submarined under the dash when they hit us. The lady in the passenger seat was so wedged that she couldn't release herself, I believe her legs were broken when they got her out. The lap belt was in the neck area. I'm not saying her thier belts were adusted properly, but I've seen this on more than one occasion. I think some of it may have to do with how the seat is adjusted and even what kind of seat is used. The plastic drag buckets that I find so uncomfortable, when installed right, give almost no way to submarine, due to the way the front of the seat comes up, and for lack of a better description cups your butt, and the way the lap belts come through the seat and hold the pelvis closer. I don't know who does the testing for the others, but SFI does the testing for NHRA and I believe IHRA as well. From what I have seen it's not usually the sactioning body that tests for safety to make the rules it's usually a thrid party, like SFI that tests and then tells the sanctioning bodies what works and what doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughdogz Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 The Schroth DOT approved 4 point harness does the exact same thing by adding their ASM device to the inside shoulder harness. The ASM device allows that shoulder harness to stretch a bit more then the outside shoulder harness which twists the hips and keeps the torso from submarining. Follow the harness manufacturer's installaiton instructions. Whew! Thanks for posting that John. I was getting worried there...I have Schroth 4 point belts (with the ASM device) installed on Sparco Milano seats. I was beginning to think I'd submarine for sure. I don't know if this is true, but I heard that the reason conventional latches aren't legal is that you need to be able to unlatch them with a single press of a button. Schroth was the only company I knew of that had this. It wasn't hard to see that my Cusco strut tower bar would not work since it would have so much deflection and might even buckle because it isn't very thick tubing (and the way it's bolted). So instead, I'm bolted to the nearest strut bolt using the optional bolt mount instead of a strap mount. I don't think it could shear but I haven't tested it yet. This also minimized the length of belt which is good, but it also made it so there is not much angle drop from horizontal unfortunately, which can also cause submarining I retained the stock seatbelts, they're just tucked out of the way. So if I do get stopped I can always revert back to OEM instead of the po-po saying they'll have to tow my car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJLamberson Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 It really depends on the officer. Most harnesses aren't DOT certified/approved and this technically means you aren't wearing and approved belt. It's not a safety thing at all. Here in Oregon I know two people that got seat belt tickets for wearing a harness. If I had to guess they pissed off the officer who pulled them over. I think Schroth and a few others have street harnesses that are certified. I know of no actual race harnesses that are. Cary throw some stickers on there and its DOT approved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy85 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Logically (at least to me ) the 5+ point without the sub belt is worse than stock three point because as you are pushed into the shoulder harness it's only means to resist you is to pull up on the latch which happens to be in the center of your lap thus pulling up the lap belt allowing you to slip under. Like that run-on.... I can notice this because I only use four of the five when I autocross and when I try to cinch down the shoulder straps it forces the lap to ride up. With the factory three point if anything as you are pushed into the shoulder strap it would tighten the lap belt because that is where the reaction force goes since it's all one continuous belt. Could be all wet but it makes since to me. Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 Whew! Thanks for posting that John. I was getting worried there...I have Schroth 4 point belts (with the ASM device) installed on Sparco Milano seats. I was beginning to think I'd submarine for sure. I don't know if this is true, but I heard that the reason conventional latches aren't legal is that you need to be able to unlatch them with a single press of a button. Schroth was the only company I knew of that had this. It wasn't hard to see that my Cusco strut tower bar would not work since it would have so much deflection and might even buckle because it isn't very thick tubing (and the way it's bolted). So instead, I'm bolted to the nearest strut bolt using the optional bolt mount instead of a strap mount. I don't think it could shear but I haven't tested it yet. This also minimized the length of belt which is good, but it also made it so there is not much angle drop from horizontal unfortunately, which can also cause submarining I retained the stock seatbelts, they're just tucked out of the way. So if I do get stopped I can always revert back to OEM instead of the po-po saying they'll have to tow my car! so you have your harness attached to the strut mount? Do you have a pic u can send me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughdogz Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 ^^ PM sent. Let me know what you think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juarez88 Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I thought about this a bit more. If you're going with illegal seats and a harness, the least of your worries is the cop who wants to write tickets for the little things in your car. If a cop is going to write you up for a illegal harness, he's probably going to write you up for an illegal engine swap too. All he has to do is ask you to pop the hood and see a nice big ls1 engine in there and play around with you and write multiple tickets for illegal swaps (seats, harness, engine, loud exhaust, emmisions (74+), no 5mph bumpers, lowered suspension, ect). long story short. if you're worried about a ticket about a semi-little thing that a cop might decide to give you, then you have to make sure your whole car is legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziza z Posted January 23, 2008 Author Share Posted January 23, 2008 I thought about this a bit more. If you're going with illegal seats and a harness, the least of your worries is the cop who wants to write tickets for the little things in your car. If a cop is going to write you up for a illegal harness, he's probably going to write you up for an illegal engine swap too. All he has to do is ask you to pop the hood and see a nice big ls1 engine in there and play around with you and write multiple tickets for illegal swaps (seats, harness, engine, loud exhaust, emmisions (74+), no 5mph bumpers, lowered suspension, ect). long story short. if you're worried about a ticket about a semi-little thing that a cop might decide to give you, then you have to make sure your whole car is legal. as far as emissions i dont have to pass smog. mine is a 75 which is the last year exempt from emissions. as far as no bumpers. well the corvette has a shaved bumper just like my Datsun. Even though my suspension is lowered its still legal. 22 inches from the middle of the headlight according to a cop i asked here in good old costa mesa. mine is 23"s off the ground. nothing can hang lower than the lowest part of my rim and nothing does. there are things illegal about my car, but cops are usually ok with pretty cars as long as im not doing anything stupid (i pretty good at controlling my self) but guys we are kinda getting off my original subject. i still havnt seen a decent mounting solution or roll cage with both passenger and driver harness bars incorporated. what would it cost to have a decent one made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buZy Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 They do and every single race sanctioning body and race harness maker in the world says to never run a 5 or 6 point harness without the sub belts. None of us are any smarter or more experienced the FIA, SCCA, NASA, NASCAR, ALMS, IRL, ChampCar, GrandAM, etc. OEM style lap and shoulder belts are designed to remain low on the hips and have the occupant's torso twist slightly in a frontal impact. This slight twist keeps the torso from sliding under the lap belt. The Schroth DOT approved 4 point harness does the exact same thing by adding their ASM device to the inside shoulder harness. The ASM device allows that shoulder harness to stretch a bit more then the outside shoulder harness which twists the hips and keeps the torso from submarining. Follow the harness manufacturer's installaiton instructions. Logically (at least to me ) the 5+ point without the sub belt is worse than stock three point because as you are pushed into the shoulder harness it's only means to resist you is to pull up on the latch which happens to be in the center of your lap thus pulling up the lap belt allowing you to slip under. Like that run-on.... I can notice this because I only use four of the five when I autocross and when I try to cinch down the shoulder straps it forces the lap to ride up. With the factory three point if anything as you are pushed into the shoulder strap it would tighten the lap belt because that is where the reaction force goes since it's all one continuous belt. Could be all wet but it makes since to me. Cameron Thanks Guys. I'm sticking with oem..... Hard to beat on the street. Aziza Z, If your not REALLY racing like everyday. If I remember correctly you drive your car ALOT right?...Why not weld/fab a 3D structure of some type between the shock towers setting up the proper belt angles. Screw the harness dude. I know they look cool. I have been very tempted myself. But that's just a belts in your way, everytime, buckles getting slammed in the door toasting your killer red paint job. I feel they are less safe. For sure a complete hastle, to be just as safe. I agree with Cameron, with no sub belt tightening the shoulders would raise the lap belt...... hows that song go.. "and now I have said too much" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 why hasn't someone invented a seat that has a suit glued to it that you slip into or zip up. Like a bullet proof vest that holds you in. Then you wouldn't need side bolsters i kid, i kid. I wouldn't want to be the one in that vest when something goes wrong and an immediate exit is required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 as far as emissions i dont have to pass smog. mine is a 75 which is the last year exempt from emissions. A little off topic - but to clarify, your car DOES still have to comply with all the California smog laws applicable to vehicles built in 1975. That includes an air pump, charcoal canister, PCV, EGR, and most likely cats. A 1975 model vehicle is exempt from the bi-annual inspection and the sale inspection, but be aware that a police officer, roadside smog check, or any BAR official or referee can order you to get your car inspected within 10 days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Check out my strut bar and shoulder harness install. The bar is very stout. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=126175 Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMWHYR0HEN Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Don't worry so much about the fuzz and your harness, besides, it's your saftey and any properly mounted harness is better than the stock belts. I've daily driven an S13 for 3 years with a red 4-point and my S30 with the same belts for 4 years with no problems in the LA area. I welded .125 wall round tube across the strut towers to serve as a STB and my harness bar. I wouldn't want my body held by a bolted STB in a collision.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CArFAn Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Myron. You think you can do a quick and dirty MS paint diagram of your setup with dimensions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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